« Food. | Main | Too long; didn't read. »

13 July 2009

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451be5069e20115710bbfe2970c

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Trying to figure out the history of fantasy roleplaying games. One in particular, for the moment.:

Comments

Excellent history, and correct as far as I can tell. But I have to disagree with your sorta waffling assessment of 4E.

For my money, it's the most hackable, customizable, reskinnable, flexible version of D&D ever... so long as you leave the core engine the hell alone.

What I mean is: Give me 30 minutes with the online tools and I can whip up a setting where the players are librarian monks fighting a war through the narratives of their books, or sky-pirates raiding airship trade routes, or members of a magical rock band touring the big cities and battling other bands onstage, etc., etc.

How? Because the classes, weapons, monsters, traps, everything really, is insanely easy to reskin without breaking anything. Also, Skill Challenges are amazing.

I think the core materials are moving towards more flexibility, too. However, the smartest thing 4E did was position itself as the first and only edition of D&D to be player-facing, i.e. the game is built from the perspective of, and for the enjoyment of, the players, not the DM. The game's only been out for a year, and most of the content released has been in the form of expanded options for players. Wait and see how much more DM options and material arrive in DMG2 and DMG3.

"Because tabletop roleplaying is extremely important in the evolution of modern American fantasy, not only generic fantasy but the mass-mediated fantasies that lull us to sleep "

Mmmmm.... Surely Tolkein is more to the point, and beyond Tolkein, the Anglo-Saxon-Norse & Celtic (and other bits of European, I guess) mythology he's inspired by?

xander -

I like the way you think! I lost my nerve re: 4e while writing this, but I think we're 90% in agreement. Reading lots of old old D&D materials is biasing me this week, but when I'm more myself I tend to think 4e is the only edition of D&D that's a truly elegant piece of game design.

MR PANDA BEAR -

In terms of the content of generic fantasy, as well as its romantic-reactionary tinge, Tolkien is the big daddy (or as the dashing China Mieville puts it, 'the wen on the arse of fantasy literature'). But without really knowing what I'm talking about, I'd suggest at first that D&D has had these two big influences:

1) Tolkien's definition of 'fantasy world' was basically 'world.' Gygax's was 'enough detail to lie convincingly.' Gygax won - and would-be fantasy storytellers might ask as obsessive as Tolkien, but kids who grew up on fantasy games, even computer/video RPGs, are used to thinking of their fantasy worlds as movie sets rather than living organisms. Which narrows the player's definition not only of 'fantasy world' but of 'world,' I'd say.

(And anyhow, Tolkien gave us the raw materials and the ethics, but LotR was a decidedly literary novel - modern fantasy just isn't that. Maybe the way escapists think of 'fantasy quests' has changed somewhat? But Frodo and Sam aren't the model of the adventurer, god knows.)

2) Abrams, Lindelof, Rogers, the Wachowskis, del Toro, Whedon, endless others - the generation of Hollywood fantasists now ascending to big decision-making power grew up with D&D as a primary source of fantasy material rather than (as for the first wargamer/RPGer generation) a complement to the pulp sources. The storytelling model for serial genre TV isn't the fantasy cycle - it's the campaign.

Imagine a giant question mark there too - this is a first pass. But my suspicion is that for people under the age of 50 - everyone after the first high-school-age D&D players - D&D as a defining 'fantasy experience' was a key pressure on their notion of escapism, fantasy, etc. It's codified geekdom in portable form. And geeks increasingly rule the world in secret, don't they.

Can't think yet. Must try later.

"The storytelling model for serial genre TV isn't the fantasy cycle - it's the campaign."

Amen to that.

As a teenager, I grew up GMing Shadowrun games. We had a massive 2-year arc, full of recurring baddies, character development, escalation and the Big Bad.

Science-fiction and Fantasy TV's emphasis on the Arc just made sense to me... starting with DS9 and Babylon 5.

That I am now working on my own projects (Hi Xander!) I can't but help feel that my dramatic sensibilities have been shaped by... the campaign.

Check out the new Something Awful article in the WTF, D&D? series:

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/fiend-folio-1.php?page=1

Your posts, are awesome....
very well written...i am one of your regular readers...

Thoughts. A well written history of D&D. I have one thing to add and a few declarative questions.

The fact: AD&D expanded the number of playable classes from 3 to 10 which was a huge change in player experience. I think this is true based on flipping through your "little books".

Question the First: You use the terms simulationism and simulationist a few times in your posts. I often see this term on the Wizards forums, usually in discussion of different edition of D&D or different RPGs. Every seems to use the term a little differently and as a result I'm never sure exactly what someone means by it.

Question the Second: When you write On the other hand, it's just (largely) combat! are you referring to 4E or D&D in general? A friend of mine is playing 4E and in their campaign half the encounters are non-combat, which was not the case when they played 3E. I think the modules I've played so far that Wizards wrote for 4E are definitely mostly combat. Even worse they are poorly motivated mostly-plot-less dungeon crawls. Bleh. That said I certainly agree that D&D compared to some other RPGS is more combat focused

Question the Final: What makes you say that 4E doesn't like to be house ruled? Wow! A direct question!

Hi Junta -

I'm glad you liked the post! You're my imagined audience for these.

The fact: AD&D expanded the number of playable classes from 3 to 10 which was a huge change in player experience. I think this is true based on flipping through your "little books".

I think this goes to your question about 'simulationism,' which I think of as 'the aim of simulating some real-world system.' GURPS is more 'simulationist' than D&D 4.0 because its combat mechanics are far more nitty-gritty than D&D's, whereas Vampire is less simulationist than either, as its combat mechanics are markedly more abstract than either of the other games'. (I think 'simulationist' is also used to talk about player tendencies, but fuck all that.)

I suspect that Gygax's idea with the class-expansion was twofold, and half right:

1) More classes allow greater customizability of play. (True!)

2) More classes will more accurately simulate the fantasy world that is our referent. (False! There is no referent, 'simulation' is nonsense in this context.)

When you write On the other hand, it's just (largely) combat! are you referring to 4E or D&D in general?

D&D in general, i.e. 4e has a cleaner combat system than previous editions but it's still very combat-heavy, which is a little juvenile. :) It seems to me that the D&D fanbase has always tended more toward martial combat than, say, the Vampire playerbase.

I'd like to find a way to run less combat-heavy sessions myself - but I think I lack confidence to push for more roleplaying, to slow things down and enjoy the dialogue and worldbuilding. Maybe that'll come in time?

You know that D&D's focus has shifted toward more detailed combat gaming and (since AD&D) less complicated mechanics, particularly simpler noncombat mechanics - but the overall trend in roleplaying games seems to be toward more evocative social mechanics, etc. I'm increasingly sympathetic to the aims of e.g. freeform gamers and storytelling-heavy games (holy crap I wanna play My Life with Master and Baron Munchausen!!). Not that I'm bored with D&D, but I want our games to be more story-ish. I guess that means buy-in and confidence...

What makes you say that 4E doesn't like to be house ruled?

I just mean the unified mechanic is elegant and balanced, unlike the modular approach in D&D and AD&D - the 'random harlot' table could be anything at all, whereas changing the way powers work maybe means altering balance throughout the system. I think 4e can be houseruled, sure, but it's resistant to too much mucking-about - not least because all the additional material is so carefully balanced and interconnected with the core stuff. If you design a 4e class that's not roughly comparable in power to the others, you're knocking the system sideways; AD&D didn't mind that shit because the whole system was cockeyed anyhow. :)

Kick my ass here if I'm out in left field! I'm slightly drunk.

And part 2 of the Fiend Folio chuckles:

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/fiend-folio-2.php

And also: Hey, are you ever going to get back in touch with me about your visit?


I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.

Margaret

http://racingonlinegames.net

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

November 2009

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30          
Blog powered by TypePad
Member since 09/2003